Comments on: Virtual Idols and Hatsune Miku http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/ Anime, Games, J-Pop and Whatever Else Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:50:36 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: poro http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-652206 Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:50:36 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-652206 This post was months before I even knew it was about. Recently on Youtube, regular American and youtubers have made this popular. I’ll point to the Kids React To Hatsune Miku as proof that American culture isn’t ready for this. Japan, home of tentacle rape, may perhaps be able to accept these Vocaloid concerts. But the very fact that non-anime watching vocaloid people have now heard of HM, means that HM has gained a new level of popularity. You may argue that predeccessors had just a much popularity but I say that none of that matters. HM was “there at the right place at the right time”. The internet has reached a point that Hatsune Miku is now appealling to a wider audience. Thanks to that levan polkka parody and others, More people have been exposed to HM. I dont think we have the tech to argue the idolification of anime characters. But I can argue that HM and anime is getting a bigger reputation not just within the island of Japan and pockets of fansub viewers around like my friends and me. But regular people that watch The Homeland over anime, know more about us. It’s starting to sizzle to the point that every student in my school knows or has heard about HM. I live in the middle of Michigan which is not even in Florida or California by the way.

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By: Seeking Hatsune Miku « Seeking Hatsune Miku http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-421377 Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:02:54 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-421377 […] Vendredi. “Virtual Idols and Hatsune Miku.” A comment posted to Dark Mirage’s blog on 4 Dec. 2010. Blog posted on 23 Nov. 2010. Web. 23 Dec. 2010. <http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/&gt;. […]

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By: vendredi http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-394900 Sat, 04 Dec 2010 08:48:05 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-394900 s more like an open-source software community..." To go back to an older example, I think that Miku is perhaps in a sense an idol in the ancient, pagan sense of the term. Actually, the whole nature of the vocaloid community does put one in the mind of ancient mythology, where you likewise had many interpreters and story-tellers at work yet having a discrete body of "canon" myths that would resonate with people and survive through repeated tellings. The totem of wood and precious metal has just been replaced by glass and light in this case...]]> “Personally, I see Hatsune Miku as a meme. The sense of joy we derive from watching her comes from shared experiences between fans more than it comes from her. It’s more like an open-source software community…”

To go back to an older example, I think that Miku is perhaps in a sense an idol in the ancient, pagan sense of the term. Actually, the whole nature of the vocaloid community does put one in the mind of ancient mythology, where you likewise had many interpreters and story-tellers at work yet having a discrete body of “canon” myths that would resonate with people and survive through repeated tellings. The totem of wood and precious metal has just been replaced by glass and light in this case…

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By: joel http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-393562 Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:20:04 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-393562 By “advancement”, I do not mean that Miku has become an improvement of the virtual object, or that the technology underlying her production is more sophisticated than earlier types of virtural idols. I would agree with you that relative to the domains of realism or technological innovation, Miku does not bring anything new to the table. However, when I examined the developmental trajectory of virtual bodies on their own terms, a couple of interesting observations came to mind:

First, Miku is less a simulation of the physical body than a caricature of it. In fact, if you compare her anatomically with Yuki Terai, Miku can even be an inferior form of virtual girl. How is it possible that a digital character that deviates so significantly from “real” human beauty, can appeal to human viewers in a similar fashion? One can claim that style is distinct from physical beauty, but I would argue here that unlike the Mona Lisa, virtual idols and game characters (composed of bodies that are designed in the same vein), actually attract and interact with human consumers, in the same way one would respond to the image of Megan Fox or a Victoria Secrets Angel.

So this leads on to the next find, that virtual bodies are not attempting to replace, or even emulate the human body. Rather they are simply animated objects possessing anthropomorphic qualities. It’s similar to other kawaii icons such as hello kitty, but with the element of human-interface interaction added into the mix. A broader question to consider would be how the simultaneous humanisation and objectification of such images would alter our own idealisations of beauty and desire…

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By: exaltdragon http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-393201 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 17:17:02 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-393201 The way I see it, Hatsune Miku is to idols what Dadaism was to Art: a conscious rejection of the validity of idols leading to a reaction where idols themselves are subverted as signs and symbols that look even more ridiculous. Yet people still thought Dadaism was art, just as how some people now treat Hatsune Miku as an idol rather than a program. Of course the supposed intentions of the creators are different but somewhere along the line the notion of creators being able to replicate an idol, that duplicity of “idol-ness”, has replaced the aesthetic value that idols(singing ability) once had. The unique “aura” of idols, in this case their uniqueness in capturing the hearts of viewers, could have been traded-in for a duplicity as found in the widespread creation on NND.

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By: DarkMirage http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-393105 Wed, 01 Dec 2010 11:13:16 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-393105 Omo:

Essentially, I do not see any fundamental difference between Miku and, say, Lynn Minmay, Haruhi or K-On! in terms of their “idolness”. I agree that people do see them as virtual idols in some sense, so we can certainly call them “virtual idols” if we feel like doing so. I am not actually opposed to this.

The thing I fail to see is what exactly is the “advancement” brought about by Miku over anime characters like Haruhi or the K-On girls to the point where we should proclaim that virtual idols are finally here, when they (idolized female anime characters) have been here for years if not decades.

The only substantial difference between Miku and the rest as far as I can see is her crowd-sourced development. This makes her a popular meme similar to Hitler Downfall videos and lolcats, and I think that that is the source of her popularity. Without the user-generated memes, she would not have become popular. While I agree that this unique attribute of hers is new and Web 2.0, I fail to see how it makes her more qualified to be a virtual idol over Sheryl Nome.

Perhaps the argument is that she exists outside of an anime, but I still fail to see what difference that makes. Does that make OS-tans idols too?

KC:

I actually agree that drawings appeal to fantasies more easily. But if you are arguing that that is what makes Miku special, then she is decades late to the game.

Jane’sTanksofWorldWarII:

You have to tell me what is “Idol 2.0”. Is it just idols plus crowd-sourcing? But I suppose my thoughts were kind of meandering on that point. Let me try to fix it.

Let’s say that being the product of a crowd-sourced effort does not preclude one from being qualified to be an “idol” (which it probably does not, but I am still sceptical about the appeals of products produced in this way). Given that past idols were not the products of crowd-sourcing, crowd-sourcing is clearly not an indicator of idol status either.

So what exactly is the qualitative difference that makes Miku a virtual idol? And what’s new about it?

I see Miku as an evolution of anime idols and community-generated memes. This certainly makes her a “virtual idol”, but it brings nothing new to the table.

What I don’t see is her replacing traditional idols in niches where they have not already been replaced by anime characters. That I believe is the original raison d’être of “virtual idols” in cyberpunk.

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By: a word on idolatry « lelangiric v2 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-390848 Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:05:52 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-390848 […] can read what omo and DM have […]

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By: Jane'sTanksofWorldWarII http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-390477 Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:06:05 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-390477 Ruling out crowdsourced idols is basically arguing a manager is a precondition of idol status, a concept I think will be seen as increasingly quaint in the future. Some of the scepticism you express seem to stem from being stuck on Idol 1.0 as the reference point instead of being ready to acknowledge the changes made possible by Idol 2.0. Flesh and blood idols are affected by real-life constraints, which shouldn’t be mindlessly emulated in the name of accuracy. Why shouldn’t virtual idols have additional means for reaching out to fans? Crowdsourcing is one of those ways of doing things differently and arguably one of the ways Miku differs from cartoon characters.

I strongly suspect that on a practical level this kind of hairsplitting will be moot in the future. We will see both crowdsourced and “traditionally” managed virtual idols, and people will readily acknowledge the idol status of both. Whatever works, will be the attitude. Besides, whether the studios like it or not, fandom is likely to turn their managed idols into crowdsource hybrids. The easy availability of realistic animation and voice programs will lead to a thriving fan industry of skinning, sampling and mixing managed idols. Canon it may not be, but to varying degrees it will influence how people relate to this and that studio idol.

Finally I’ll throw the odd spanner in the works. Shinto religion claims as a matter of faith that even inanimate objects have spirits in them. A number of commentators in the west have already posited that the positive view of humanoid robots in Japan is influenced by a worldview conditioned by Shintoism. Even a Japanese atheist is going to be affected by the culture he grew up in. Perhaps we with our Judeo-Christian cultural blinkers are predisposed to view constructs as fundamentally inanimate, so we have a hard time gauging how Japanese fans might relate to something like Miku.

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By: Omonomono » Transhuman Idol, for Reals http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-390420 Fri, 26 Nov 2010 00:43:12 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-390420 […] DM posted some observation about Miku Hatsune, thanks to William Gibson. I think I still have to finish Mona Lisa Overdrive, dropped it like a fifth of the way through. But this was like, 1999. […]

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By: KC http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/2010/11/23/virtual-idols-and-hatsune-miku/comment-page-1/#comment-390279 Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:35:16 +0000 http://2pwn.tk/websites/www.darkmirage.com/?p=1463#comment-390279 s because seeing Hatsune Miku as an idol requires a suspension of disbelief far greater in magnitude than that required for a typical mass-produced humanoid idol. Ridiculous. >true virtual idol should emulate reality to a higher level of accuracy. Phooey. 2D > 3D (actually, that is inaccurate now since there are 3D projections of Miku. Really should say drawings > real life)]]> >that’s because seeing Hatsune Miku as an idol requires a suspension of disbelief far greater in magnitude than that required for a typical mass-produced humanoid idol.

Ridiculous.

>true virtual idol should emulate reality to a higher level of accuracy.

Phooey. 2D > 3D (actually, that is inaccurate now since there are 3D projections of Miku. Really should say drawings > real life)

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